ISRAEL V/S PALESTINE/HAMAS - Perspectives

 I am posting the discussion between me and Charakan on the ISRAEL-PALESTINE/HAMAS issue. I believe it is worth reading.

As it turns out, both of us hate HAMAS but I also Kinda took Israel’s side between ISRAEL-PALESTINE, but at the end of it, I guess I am pretty convinced that ISRAEL isn’t doing all that good in Palestine and we do need to see things beyond what ‘western’ media says.So I kinda stand confused on this issue now,I would love to see what you guys think..even if that involves changing my opinion.

It all started when I wrote the below paragraph in my last post

I was irritated when Israel was asked to stop their confrontation with HAMAS recently. For me, it was the same thing,, hello!! Israel did not call for it, they even gave up GAZA, hoping for peace, you freaking come and fire rockets at them, what do you expect back? I know that innocents get involved and loose their lives, but then there are innocents loosing their life on Israel’s side as well, right? A country has every right to protect its citizens.

His replies in blue.

Mine in Red.

I do not agree with you on Israel.May be you should read about the history of Arab-Israeli conflict in detail and come to a conclusion rather than depending on Western Mass Media.
few links from anti-zionist jewish websites which may help you
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?ar=10&pg=4
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/101conflict.shtml
You can also read a recently published Book titled Broken Promises Broken Dreams by a Jewish doctor named Dr Alice Rothchild.

I will go through the link, but my point is, that time is over, now if you don't fire rockets at Israel, they ain't gonna simply attack you.The world has changed now. To stick to old causes and still develop suicide bombers is not justified anymore.Same is the case with LTTE,they came into being for a reason, but now they just kill innocents, like HAMAS does,,so I am pretty much not interested in what happened 30 years back and why they were formed, if you are killing innocents now, you will get what you deserve.

I cannot understand what you meant by World have changed.Nothing has changed for those in Gaza.Palestinians are facing an occupational force all these years.Even if 150 years pass occupation is occupation.
The attack on Gaza by Israel just before Obama's coronation was an election ploy.Israel had an election in February and the various Israeli Political Leaders involved wanted to depict themselves as more aggressive than the other at the expense of lives of about 1200 Palestinians. Go through those links when you get time.It may be interesting if you like history.

Well, our thinking is pretty much the opposite in that case, I really don't think ISRAEL will attack palestine NOW if HAMAS stop firing its rockets. If you remember just when ISRAEL declared ceasefire after a month long operation, HAMAS was still firing rockets.
I mean, I indict HAMAS for all the innocent lives that were lost and not ISRAEL. If they stop goading ISRAEL, I seriously doubt ISRAEL can do any damage to PALESTINE NOW ( And by now - what has changed is that countries need to justify their attack on someone, even US by the way ). If you don't give ISRAEL a reason to attack, it CANNOT and WILL NOT.
How come, you support my view on LTTE and Not on HAMAS? Even LTTE was formed for a noble cause by the way.

 

Chikki,you talk as if Israel and Palestine are 2 sovereign states. And you said Israel even gave up Gaza Strip as if Britain will say we even gave up India in 1947.Israel is a Nation created by Britain and US in West Asia on the Palestinian homeland. Main root of the problem is that.Israel still contorls all the routes to West Bank and Gaza and decides what happens there.The missile strike was against the Isreali blockade of the border crossings resulting in severe food shortage and economic hardships. I do not support Hamas which is an ultra extremist Islamist force.I support Fatah.Systematic undermining of the moderate and somewhat secular Fatah by US and Israel by sabotaging all peace deals signed by Arafat resulted in the rise of Hamas.Israel likes Hamas the same way hindutva forces likes jihadists.Both feed on each other. You can also read the open letter to Obama by Teachers of major universities of US in my blog about Palestine issue.

http://mytake-charakan.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-obama-about-gaza.html

Sorry for the long comment.I am and I believe most freedom loving liberal people all over the World are emotional about this.

Gaza was a territory won by Israel in a War in which it faced troops from almost 6-8 countries or say the whole Arab-world'.Can you beat that?Do you expect China to give 'Aksai Chin' back to India?
By the way, rockets are not aimed at Blockade alone. I have no idea how do I reply to this. I think HAMAS will be ashamed too when they hear this, I mean, even if they fired a rocket or two at blockade, you ofcourse know that even HAMAS claims responsibility of rockets they fire inside Israel, don't you??You do know they claim responsibility of the suicide attacks that happen inside Israel, right?

About your open letter to Obama?I don't see it eulogizing HAMAS, but I do see it criticizing ISRAEL.Interesting, you should probably read LTTE's history too, I am sure, you will start criticizing Sri Lanka.Allthough I must say I am a bit confused as you said you agree to my points about LTTE and Sri Lanka but not Hamas and Israel.
You talk about freedom?What about freedom of Israel to exist?Do you know HAMAS doesn't even recognize Israel??

Oh yea, I remember, you casually mentioned that you hate HAMAS too, then you should probably read my post again.Infact I wonder, what were we even debating then?I am not sure, what is the point that you wanna convey? Is it something like , you wanna say - you hate HAMAS and you hate Israel too??By the way you should also read how Jews residing in the Arab world were oppressed after the war.
I am against LTTE , I am against HAMAS, I am against any damn terrorist outfit, that kills innocents, that has no regard for human value, Ofcourse I support offensive against them, and that is why I was so pissed off when ISRAEL wasn't allowed to pursue its bombing of HAMAS targets, and that is why I get pissed off when I hear Tamils across the world sympathize with LTTE.

By the way , I stand by my point, I take HAMAS responsible for innocent lives lost in Gaza.

Chikki,you said,
Gaza was a territory won by Israel in a War in which it faced troops from almost 6-8 countries or say the whole Arab-world'Can you beat that?

Do you mean to say that if a foreign army invaded a part of country and established control then they have the legitimate right there for ever even if they withdraw? By that logic Germany which beat the Allies in World War 2 and occupied France and other European Countries should have all the rights there for ever? Will you call the French resistance movement terrorists then? In any resistance movement there will be extremists.Hamas is an extremist organisation whom I do not support.
Difference between the Srilankan Tamils cause and that of Palestenian cause is that Srilankan Tamils are facing discrimination in their homeland from a majority ruling class while Palestinians are facing Occupation by an invading force. Discrimination by a democratic ruling class is different from Occupation by another country.

Invading force'..?? Who wanted to capture Israel and who refused its existence??who wanted to invade Israel? Who massed up army along the border which led to war??Who wished that Israel should cease to exist?? Errr....Arabs..!!

Just because they Lost the war, and the opposite happened - Israel ended up capturing some of their territory, you can't cry foul now..That would be so lame..Why was a defeat not expected in the 1st place??why were the pros and cons not carefully weighed?
I believe Israel does better than Arabs would have done if god forbids the result would have been opposite. In 2004,Israel agreed to return land captured by them, if HAMAS stopped the violence. Unilateral disengagement from Gaza was a result of this.But what did HAMAS do??continued its violence and broke the peace accord. Why would a country not get pissed?Specially when it also HAS THE POWER TO GET PISSED!!

Chikki, Israel is a Nation created by Britain and US using their colonial power in West Asia on the Palestinian homeland. Do you agree?
Zionists are settler minorities who is trying to displace the majority Arabs from their home land. do you agree?
If a large group of ppl come to your native land and try to settle there and carve an exclusive settler only nation there will you welcome them or oppose them?
Above points are the root of the problem.Rest of the discussion depemds on how you answer the above questions.
If your answers are supporting Zionism then I will beg to disagree and stop this discussion because there is no point in continuing.

"Israel is a Nation created by Britain and US using their colonial power in West Asia on the Palestinian homeland."

Agreed! That happened after the holocaust.
And ofcourse you don't disagree with the fact that JEWS were not there before creation of ISRAEL, do you??
From what you have been writing, it looks like - even you don't recognize the right of 'ISRAEL to exist' which is very disturbing to me.

"Zionists are settler minorities who is trying to displace the majority Arabs from their home land. do you agree?"

I think its the opposite happening - Arabs just can't recognize the right of 'ISRAEL to be'. why can they 'Live and let live'??Why do they keep goading ISRAEL all the time?? and when ISRAEL retaliates, they start looking around the world for help. Wahhh!!

"If a large group of ppl come to your native land and try to settle there and carve an exclusive settler only nation there will you welcome them or oppose them"

First of all Israel is not on a 'conquering spree' and we are not living in an 'imperialist age'. ISRAEL is a NATION now . It is not practicing 'Slavery' either.
You attack ISRAEL, ISREAL doesn't attack you and take your land away!! It is even ready to give your land back. All it wants is peace which you can't seem to believe in because if peace prevails, you will obviously not have an agenda to live and you will become so Jobless!!

To all the ARABS -->
'LIVE AND LET LIVE' guys please. 2nd World war is over long back.A lot has changed, but please MOVE ON you guys!!

Ya, thats all! I hope you did not skip anything.;-)!Its an exhausting post again with more than 1800 words. These ‘55-ers’ are gonna hate me.

IHM – I remember the strikethrough post, I will do it I promise.:-).

Things I am emo about

Hmm..Things that I am emotional about??..I was told that ‘irritation’ is also an ‘emotion’, and its a lot easier to write about things that irritate you, isn’t it? So yea, let me start with sharing the things that irritate me, later I can share other emos like things that make me cry, laugh,frown etc etc.

1)Tamils who support LTTE ; countries asking Sri Lanka to halt their military operations against them.

Finally Sri Lanka is doing something that it should have done long back, it is something that India should have done long back. Wipe out the terrorists in a planned offensive!!

Demand for separate land?WTF? Why can’t you stay in harmony with others? And as if a separate land will solve your problems? What happened to Pakistan?what happened to Bangladesh?

For those of you who think that Sri Lanka is bombing innocent civilians who are trapped, let me tell you a responsible Govt will always try its best to save innocents, its the cold-blooded terrorists who will not care for innocents, have a look at TOI’s report which confirm that LTTE is infact using civilians as human shields.

LTTE-killed-civilians-Surrendered-leaders

I did not actually need TOI to confirm this for me, this was something which was so obvious to me.These terrorists will go to any extent to save their ass.

For those supporting ceasefires, it is a truism by now that ceasefires only helps these terrorists as they come out stronger and kill more people.

For those against violence, I say Sri Lanka did not call for it, it was not their first choice, but what the hell are you gonna do if people come and kill your innocent civilians every alternate day? and the death toll is about 40,000 for your information.

For those supporting political resolution, or resolution through talks, I think the Govt tried it for 2 decades, but as they say laato ke bhoot baato se nahi maante.

People still want Sri Lanka to stop?Why not use your channels and pursue LTTE instead to give up??Huh??Very simple right??

The best part was, when the assholes were subjugated in a 6KM sq area, they declared ceasefire, just as I was reading the news, I thought “what a fucking Joke” and next day Sri Lankan Govt comes out with the same word “A Joke”.

I do know the purpose of why LTTE came into being, but what the hell, if you deviate from your very purpose and start developing suicide bombers, then you will have no sympathy atleast from me and BUSH.

On Similar lines, I was irritated when Israel was asked to stop their confrontation with HAMAS recently. For me, it was the same thing,, hello!! Israel did not call for it, they even gave up GAZA, hoping for peace, you freaking come and fire rockets at them, what do you expect back? I know that innocents get involved and loose their lives, but then there are innocents loosing their life on Israel’s side as well, right? A country has every right to protect its citizens.

You don’t expect every country to be an India showing so called ‘resilience and restraint’ even after people come, enter your house, kill your civilians, but you show world-famous ‘restraint’!!

For those Indians who espouse LTTE, they should probably feel for local banned outfits like SIMI etc etc too, otherwise you are just a hypocrite.

This is why I probably like Bush and even Bhagat Singh for that matter!!

Oops! I had a few more ‘irritations’ to write, this was just one, but may be I will divide this subject into parts – a hundred of ’em?, so that I don’t end up writing an exhausting post again.:-)

God! when will I ever be able to write a 55 word thingi??

Recommended Link : some-species-are-better-extinct

IHM, you had once asked if 'violence is justified for any goddamn reason', here is my answer, I probably did not comment then, because I knew I could write a dozen posts on that topic.:-)!